chrisbrogan.com - Latest Comments in Why PodCamp Boston 3 Costs 50 Bucks

Re: Why PodCamp Boston 3 Costs 50 Bucks

Matt Searles — Sat, 12 Jul 2008 16:57:09 -0000

I didn't get around to reading these comments till now.

One of the things I've always loved about social media was.. lol, I guess that most of the events are free. I say this from the perspective of a starving artists who's often been in a position to have to save up for a $50 book.. who demands crazy processing power from computers, but somehow was on the same Power Mac for... I want to say 8 years?

I've generally been forced to perceive things from the bottom of the social economic stratas... but in the social media space.. it really doesn't matter all that much...

I think a part of the dream, that is somehow at the spiritual core of social media.. has something to do with inclusiveness, democracy, equality.. that sorta thing. We dream of more people joining our party.. I mean isn't it great that those laps tops are going off to the developing world?

Globalization has this quality to it.. the petter parts of it that is, of being like a vision for told by Marx.. I often think of it like.. a dream that the amount that merit matters relative to power relationships.. seems like social media is in part about changing that relationship. Though maybe there's some nievety to this thought, I don't know.

I suppose I say this as someone who's.. I guess a consumer of radical progressive political thought... the deeper philosophical critiques more then the politics per say.. and when you look at social media from the stand point of those intellectual traditions, and indeed a few others, its hard not to go "holy shit!"

I mean, for those of us who try to wrestle with the shadow side of the American experiment.. what you find your self feeling most proud of are movements with a lot of collective weight behind them.. when the people spoke, and spoke loudly.. and what should social media be, in it's most ideal form, then the people speaking?

In any event, the charging for $50.. though it might not seem like a lot of money, that sorta depends on how much money you got.. and so it seems at least like a kind of symbolic thing.. that.. makes me at least long for a solution that.. might be different.

I appreciate the reasons for going this way.. and I see the virtues to it... and at the very least I'm interested in how it might change the experience.. I mean maybe there will be ways in which it will be better.. we'll certainly see.

Another thing I'd add is.. with an $50 admission price.. its harder to drag people to it. "No man, you really really really gotta check this out!"

In any event.. Podcamp is like my absolute favorite event of the year. It's one of these things I just can't wait for, you know? So my concern is really out of a deep kind of love of the event and the space, and what it means to me, and it is not in anyway about being critical of you organizer folks... I think what you're doing, and have done, is awesome.

Re: Why PodCamp Boston 3 Costs 50 Bucks

David Tames — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 09:52:00 -0000

I applaud your move to change a token admission fee. For better or worse, in the post-industrial capitalist society we live in, many of us don't take things seriously unless we pay for them somehow. Very few people took "being green" seriously until the Iraq war and high gas costs, even though scientists, economists, and environmentalists have been warning us of the problems since the late 60s. I consider a fee a good way to help determine how serious participants are to really be part of Podcamp, for there are real costs involved when someone says they are coming and does not. The best things in life are not always free, and $50 is by far the best value in media making networking and learning around. The open ledger is quite a nice feature. We should avoid rigid definitions of what is an unconference, for Podcamp Boston still stands out as a very special event and the model of an unconference that works.

Re: Why PodCamp Boston 3 Costs 50 Bucks

Roxanne Darling — Thu, 01 May 2008 01:39:52 -0000

There is no substitute for walking in another's shoes. The peeps who do the lion's share of work putting on an event have a unique perspective that those of us on the outside can listen to and understand.

Likewise, "market forces" also have a role to play; how many people will be put off and away by a fee?

On a bigger scale, can we start returning to financial transactions that are imbued with value not usury, and reclaim that part of the conversation for ourselves as well? I am interested in that.

Re: Why PodCamp Boston 3 Costs 50 Bucks

kathy shields — Wed, 30 Apr 2008 16:23:47 -0000

Hmmm, $50 for an open discussion and unlimited sharing and collaboration or $600+ for lectures and people pushing their latest book on you? I think podcamp Boston will be a better value as compared to BLC which is going on at roughly the same time and in the same city. Sorry if I sound jaded. I have been to many conferences this year. Podcamps make the conversation democratic. In other words, they tend to act like a f2f version of the web. What could be better?

Re: Why PodCamp Boston 3 Costs 50 Bucks

John C. Havens — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 18:46:08 -0000

Thanks, Chris.

Re: Why PodCamp Boston 3 Costs 50 Bucks

chrisbrogan — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 07:19:10 -0000

John- absolutely right. Large PodCamps aren't bad. You proved that last year for sure.

For our event in Boston, and not as a statement to all PodCamps the world around, we're looking towards something just a little smaller, but not because more is bad. We just have a preference.

And your other points were also valid, but I wanted to answer the one that directly impacts NYC2, which should be a hoot.

Re: Why PodCamp Boston 3 Costs 50 Bucks

John C. Havens — Fri, 18 Apr 2008 21:15:37 -0000

First off, kudos to Chris and Chris for charging and seeing where that goes. If that improves the rate of sign-ups to participants showing up, those metrics/data will help lots of other folks when planning in the future.

That said, I don't think Podcamps should charge. I think any amount of money could be seen as a barrier to entry and I think the event being free makes it unique.

I also think we should brown bag it to Podcamps from now on. If you come, bring your own chow or we'll tell you where you can eat nearby. That's what we're doing with PodCampNYC2 this year as getting meals for everyone would cost at least $10K and we also face the same risk of lots of no-shows and wasted food. We have about 950 people signed up to participate at this point. If 50 or 1,000 people show up, our costs remain the same and our only waste will be excess schedules on paper we can recycle.

I think a big issue here is about getting sponsors for a Podcamp. When organizers find local sponsors to get involved they're moving the Podcamp model forward by reaching to new folks outside of the existing community. Knowing that Chris and Chris are not eschewing sponsors, if 500 paying folks show up, that's $25K. There's a possibility that participants alone could eventually cover the budget, and then sponsor money wouldn't be needed. I think not having sponsors demonstrate their commitment/interest in the podcamp community by feeling that they're truly making the event happen would be a loss. If they supplement other fees, their value may not be considered as high.

Finally, I'd like to request something-can we agree that if the size of an event doesn't make it a Podcamp, can we also agree it can be large (500 or over) and still have value? We had great feedback from last year's PodCampNYC which had about 1,000 people show up. If size truly doesn't matter, please let's not prejudge an event that has numbers of any size one way or the other.

John C. Havens
Lead Organizer,
PodCampNYC

Re: Why PodCamp Boston 3 Costs 50 Bucks

prp6040 — Fri, 18 Apr 2008 10:21:34 -0000

I definitely understand charging to validate attendance, but who can afford such a high rate? It has now become a barrier to entry fee. You may not see it that way, and I know in my heart that you mean well, but after plane ticket, hotel, and etc., another $50 would just end it. And even if I lived in the area, what if I was low income? How about charging something in the area of $10 so that those with limited funds can also attend? Or I can save my $10 for the next Tech Crunch party? $50 is just too steep a change from free. Maybe next time kick people in the groin when they leave so they feel that $50 for no groin kick will seem like a bargain.

Re: Why PodCamp Boston 3 Costs 50 Bucks

PurpleCar — Thu, 17 Apr 2008 21:52:58 -0000

Yup, makes sense, but we can use technology to tell if people are going to come to the event, too. Also, the sponsors are guaranteed to get their name in front of members whether or not the members show up, because there will be mass emails, mailings, etc. to members. It almost doesn't matter if they show up then, does it?

Re: Why PodCamp Boston 3 Costs 50 Bucks

chrisbrogan — Thu, 17 Apr 2008 21:28:48 -0000

@purplecar - the membership makes sense if we're seeking the money to make money, but ultimately, the money is symbolic of a commitment to attend the event. Meaning, if you pay your $50 membership, but still don't show up, we still don't have a count of who will really (likely) be there. Make sense?

So, the scholarship for attendance idea is a good one, but the mechanism has to exist such that we ensure we know who's attending. Make sense?

Re: Why PodCamp Boston 3 Costs 50 Bucks

PurpleCar — Thu, 17 Apr 2008 20:12:25 -0000

Hey guys! I was chatting with Whitney yesterday (in person! whoo hoo!) about this. Maybe we could have avoided the controversy if we offered memberships to Podcamp Boston. It's a dot org, so memberships are expected! 50 buck a year membership gets you free admission to podcamp, automatic yearly registration, etc. etc. I can come up with a list of other doable benefits (like a business contact directory etc.) that would last the year in ten minutes. Heck, we could charge $75 for such a valuable membership! And if there is any money left over we could set up a scholarship program for Podcamp Boston attendance. What do you think of that?

Re: Why PodCamp Boston 3 Costs 50 Bucks

Christopher S. Penn — Wed, 16 Apr 2008 07:44:02 -0000

Please feel free to sponsor a PodCamp Boston scholarship.

http://www.podcampboston.or...

Re: Why PodCamp Boston 3 Costs 50 Bucks

Judy-on-the-go-Reid — Wed, 16 Apr 2008 07:31:15 -0000

Chris and Douglas, you certainly know how to generate debate.

Never been to an unConference. Just got internet to my living quarters and may start blogging any day now. :) I have however organized conferences, a couple of them for non-profit organizations.... and I have to wonder how you folks managed to run your (un)conferences without registration fees.

Charging $50 does not tell people that they are not wanted at PodCamp. Fifty dollars is not a punishment, it's a commitment - a small contribution to what sounds like a very rewarding event.

While it might be convenient for attendees not to pay, logistically it makes sense to be able confirm the number of people attending an event.... and the truth is people are more likely to make a firm commitment when a fee is involved.

It's not about bigger being better. If you have smaller audience/discussion group you won't want to book the ballroom. It's not about making money or saving money or running a business, it's about being better organized and accountable. Not that there’s ANYTHING wrong with making money, saving money or running a business (by the way when did business become a dirty word?).

If organizers are relying on funding or logistical support from sponsors, then an accurate attendance forecast is needed again.

If participants can’t afford $50, then as Kat suggested there are ways to raise funds. We are talking about people involved in social media right? They can reach out and find their own sponsor(s). It’ll make for an interesting project and blog post / podcast. And it’s another way to contribute to the event.

A couple of weeks ago here in Afghanistan the first ever blogging workshop was held. It was a two day event in Kabul and organizers had to overcome obstacles such as electricity shortages. They may not charge $50 to attend but they do fundraise and ask for donations for things such as generators. Most Afghans can't afford to go to internet cafes. Fifty bucks is too much to ask in a country where the average annual income is about $400. In North America? Not so much.

Re: Why PodCamp Boston 3 Costs 50 Bucks

chrisbrogan — Wed, 16 Apr 2008 00:35:36 -0000

@Douglas - the logic is wrong. Sorry. Charging money doesn't equal turning it into a business.

Ripped off from Dictionary.com:

1. an occupation, profession, or trade: His business is poultry farming.
2. the purchase and sale of goods in an attempt to make a profit.
3. a person, partnership, or corporation engaged in commerce, manufacturing, or a service; profit-seeking enterprise or concern.

Nope. This event isn't my occupation. It's not an attempt to make a profit. It's not a profit-seeking enterprise or concern.

You're welcome to disagree. You're even welcome to run PodCamps for free, provided you follow the six rules.

But I'm all done talking about whether or not it's a business. My business is not PodCamp.

Respectfully.

Re: Why PodCamp Boston 3 Costs 50 Bucks

Kat — Tue, 15 Apr 2008 23:57:17 -0000

anytime i wanted to attend an event
but didn't have the price of entry
i found another way in

offer to raise X amount of dollars from a sponsor
have your friends sponsor you
do something fun and creative damn it!
be more creative than i am at this hour

if you want in
you'll get in
the excuse of "I don't have the cash"
with no other offer of a solution?
that's lame :)

Re: Why PodCamp Boston 3 Costs 50 Bucks

Christopher S. Penn — Tue, 15 Apr 2008 23:42:54 -0000

@Douglas: Then we agree to disagree, sir. Start a conference of your own, based on what you believe should be the experience. Sara Streeter did it with NewBCamp in Providence, and has started something great, inspired by PodCamp but not PodCamp. Chris Hambly in the UK did it, with MediaCamp Bucks based on his interpretation of PodCamp but not PodCamp. Justin Kownacki did it with BootCamp PGH.

The template is out there, the process is transparent - start your own conference, and tell us where to find it.

Re: Why PodCamp Boston 3 Costs 50 Bucks

Douglas E. Welch — Tue, 15 Apr 2008 23:32:12 -0000

That quote is disingenuous at best, Christopher. ie. Free vs. free to attend.

I don't think anyone ever denied that it took money to put on PodCamp, hence the signs and thank you's to sponsors, etc.

To a college student (or anyone with less disposable income) though PodCamp was free to attend. Now it isn't. It has absolutely nothing to do with how much money it takes to put the show on.

We are basically saying, to a lot of people, "you aren't wanted here."

I find that horribly sad.

Re: Why PodCamp Boston 3 Costs 50 Bucks

Christopher S. Penn — Tue, 15 Apr 2008 22:44:46 -0000

Laura Fitton said it best on CC Chapman's blog after PodCamp Boston 2 last year. Reprinted:

The event isn’t, and from what little I understand, never was FREE. In a way, no event ever is. It is subsidized by sponsors and by volunteer hours. You attend for free, because somebody else paid your way. Simple as that.

I think opening up the option for it to be a nominal fee, or a pay what you want, or some other locally-derived setup, and oriented largely towards keeping attendance expectations (and resulting volunteer hours) in line with reality, is 100% reasonable.

While anticipating an event that huge, the volunteer corps of organizers really had to bust their guts. Hard. Long hours, much stress. Value their time at a nominal rate of $10 or even $5 an hour, and you see that a very small group paid hundreds and thousands for the rest of us to have the event for free.

Re: Why PodCamp Boston 3 Costs 50 Bucks

David LaMorte — Tue, 15 Apr 2008 22:19:58 -0000

Sure I'll pay your $50 dollars, Uncle Money Bags. Just don't complain to me when I show up to the registration desk with my sacks full of pennies.

Re: Why PodCamp Boston 3 Costs 50 Bucks

Douglas E. Welch — Tue, 15 Apr 2008 22:12:37 -0000

@Whitney

Simply this...deciding to charge a fee for all, because some do not show up, is punishing those who do (and have) sign up and show up. How is this fair in any way, shape or form? It is a punishment, because everyone is being forced to pay for something that was (and by all rights) ought to be free...or the conferences should be forked into PodCamp and PodCamp Pro so motives and agenda are clearly established.

Conferences such s SXSW, PME etc have ALWAYS been a fee event. Turning PodCamp into a fee event is what sticks in my craw. If you want to create a business out of conference organization, then do that from the start, under a different name. Charging for the event, especially $50, which is far above a token fee, turns PodCamp into a business in my opinion. It is the first step towards the eventual dissolution of open-sourced PodCamps, as organizers all around the world see this is a validation to begin charging. I can also guarantee that other organizers out there won't be nearly as circumspect about making money from the event.

As for value, the "value" that attendees provide is their attendance, their talks and their knowledge. To determine that money is the only investment that counts is absurd and shows contempt for the attendees and all that volunteer to make the event possible.

Finally, whenever I hear organizers of any free event complaining about how difficult and time consuming organizing is, I ask them, "Then why do it?" If you are truly getting nothing out of organizing, why continue? How does a $50 entrance fee gain you any more benefit? You're not getting paid, right? Does it make it any easier to organize the event? Probably not as now you have the burden of handling money, refunds, comps, complaints, etc. Charging a fee for attendance doesn't seem to alleviate any of the organizational issues, it only adds more.

There seems to be an idea that the only people who matter at a PodCamp are the organizers. While I certainly laud their work, we are in a very dangerous area when we fail to recognize that the value of PodCamp comes for EVERYONE involved, not just the organizers.

Re: Why PodCamp Boston 3 Costs 50 Bucks

Whitney — Tue, 15 Apr 2008 21:45:51 -0000

@Douglas- With all due respect, how is 700 people saying they are attending and no showing punishing the majority for the actions of a few? And why is the punishment term being used at all? Why isn't attending Podcamp seen as being a privilege- something worth a pretty minimal investment? People pay a lot more to attend SXSW, PME and other conferences. And moreover, Podcamp has been a great way to try new ways to run a conference- we mash up a broader audience than many conferences, and thats' the strength at the core.

Moreover, life is not free. Work is hard. Without knowing that the community actually cares, that attendance is predictable- do you really expect organizers to put the event together, year after year, for your convenience, without some small investment from the community in terms of showing thatthey value the experience?

Re: Why PodCamp Boston 3 Costs 50 Bucks

Kat — Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:15:13 -0000

@Douglas

i can see how contempt was read into my comment
it was certainly not intended
it was referring only to those who will complain the loudest and take up the most energy
*not* the majority to be sure
if that were the case
i wouldn't support my husband in all of this

as a note i think a lot of your points are very valid
and i'm sure a compromise nwill come out of all of this
i have faith in the people who care about podcamp
yourself included

Re: Why PodCamp Boston 3 Costs 50 Bucks

Douglas E. Welch — Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:01:09 -0000

On a related note, I am finding the disturbing trend of punishing everyone for the transgressions of a small group.

If people aren't showing up, figure out at way to punish them for that behavior instead of punishing everyone. Wait list them for future conferences, publish their names publicly as scofflaws, but don't make all of us pay, both literally and figuratively, for their behavior.

Re: Why PodCamp Boston 3 Costs 50 Bucks

Jay Moonah — Tue, 15 Apr 2008 16:14:11 -0000

Chrises: Did you guys ever consider that maybe the real problem with Podcamp Boston 2 was that you tried to grow an event 300-400% in one year, and perhaps it just wasn't meant to be that big that quick (if ever)?

Also, and I don't have any research to back it up, but I'd suspect there's a curve on attendance for free events based on number of registrants vs. sign-up so that as you increase. If you run a free event where 20 people sign-up, I suspect you usually get pretty damn close to 100% attendance. There are probably diminishing returns for more and more sign-ups, no?

One of my co-workers who came to Podcamp Toronto used to help organize free events for clients, and she was quite impressed that we were around 60% for a weekend event with 400ish sign-ups. She said she would have counted on it being 50 or less.

Re: Why PodCamp Boston 3 Costs 50 Bucks

GeekMommy — Tue, 15 Apr 2008 16:04:26 -0000

Honestly? that sounds about right.

I suppose the argument could be made for a $50 refundable space reserve deposit - as in, if you come, we give it back, if you don't come, you lose the deposit because that space would've been used by someone else... but honestly, that would be a headache.

I'd easily pay $50 if I were close enough to go to it. You'd pay that much to attend a seminar through your local parks & rec or thru a 'free university' program.

Makes sense since you clearly aren't trying to profit from it, but are trying to make certain that those RSVPing will actually be vested in attending.