You twittered that you might get beat up for it, but I'm on board Chris - and I'm not a very good groupie so that's saying something. I'm nurturing relationships for the conversations they make possible; for the ideas and the sparks. I'm interacting because these ideas turn into other ideas and help my clients down the road. Thanks for giving me ways to connect with some fine people and do what I'm doing today.
ravi karandeekar
· 2 years ago
hello chrisbrogan! i learned about community development for the first time from you. it is the most useful concept i have ever found on the web. useful means which i can implement in my profession at my place. thanks a lot for that. Of course, some times i find it little bit difficult to understand you. no, i am not complaining. i am telling you this because i have started looking at you as my teacher. teacher who makes you think and work on it. thanks for visiting my blog. thanks for twittering about this post. i have started looking for your tiny url to visit. thanks!
Goldie Katsu
· 2 years ago
The funny thing is that I don't know that the market has changed, only where the market is. I've done some research on fund raising, and what people have noticed is that people give to the causes that their friends are involved in. I suspect that purchases are similarly influenced. How many tweets have said "I'm going to movie X have you seen it"?
The thing that I think is derailing people is that some people don't seem to grasp that communities created in virtual environments are as real and influential, and in some ways more real and influential as those created at workplaces and neighborhoods.
For those who have adapted to the new environment it is obvious that those I twitter with and facebook with and blog with know more about me than possibly the hypothetical guy in the next cube. Because our environment is conversational we talk about more as who we are is defined by how we project ourselves.
I think the social networks may be more influential because of: 1) the amount of dialog/discussion (or conversations to use the parlance of the cluetrain manifesto) 2) the ability to connect on interest - down to very specific interests. 3) The global nature. My network covers the nation and so the impact goes beyond a small circle. The connections may be looser but there are so many more.
Ike Pigott
· 2 years ago
You're being honest, Chris - to the point of endangering your cachet with the Bloggerati.
Keep asking the right questions. I've got a few of them hitting tomorrow.
Bernie Goldbach
· 2 years ago
I wonder how closely Neville Hobson's conversation at Podcamp Ireland will follow your conclusions here. We're asking Neville to explain the way the FIR Community sustains its energy and much of what you say would be solid reasons for the growth and development of a business communicator's community.
Shaine
· 2 years ago
I'm going to have to read the Cluetrain Manifesto now. But despite my ignorance, I get your message.
Whitney
· 2 years ago
This is an amazing post.
I had lunch with an amazing guy yesterday, Doug Taylor, from Podcast People. We spoke about many things, but the personal interaction, the "I'm here in the moment and interested in finding out about you, how I can help You today and in the future" rather than "What can I get from you?" makes all the difference in the conversation.
This is part of the shift that's happening, I think- a bit of a rebellion against rapacious capitalism, and more thinking about planting seeds for long term, not just quarterly results. It's hard to think long term when you're worried about tommorrow, but if you can''t keep an eye on both, all you have is short term results and nothing in the end.
JoeC
· 2 years ago
Whitney says it well with "rebellion against rapacious capitalism." For myself, I love that I can have a network of people that I know personally, with whom there is no expectation of business or profit or sales. I like that they don't see me as just a potential customer, with a big bull's-eye on my photo. I like people that aren't constantly "on message", that aren't relentlessly professional, that are themselves not an employee of a company.
This is the same reason I avoid Walmart whenever possible, that I take my car repair business to a local guy that actually knows my name, and my liquor purchases to a guy that's a member of my golf club. I think people are very weary of being analyzed, polled, and manipulated like they were just so many cattle. They are hungry for and very welcoming of being treated as a potential friend as opposed to a potential mark.
Jon G.
· 2 years ago
JoeC said:
"I think people are very weary of being analyzed, polled, and manipulated like they were just so many cattle."
Amen, brother.
Community developers and marketers alike would do well to bear this in mind.
-Jon G.
Justin Kownacki
· 2 years ago
Funny how "conservative" values, like keeping our conversations / problems / business transactions "in the family," marry so easily with "liberal" ideals like open communication, transparency and anticapitalism.
We're a complex bunch, we social media types...
Alex Turner
· 2 years ago
I think (and have found) that internet communities are far to internecine to be a large revenue source as yet.
People involved with social media think 'wow this is huge'. Well, in terms of the number of people we communicate with bi-directionally, yes they are huge. But in terms of the mono-directional media like advertising, social media are very small.
Then you add that issue that people involved with social media are leaders more than sheep. The media is so young that the sheep are only just joining. Hey - you guys are so well clude in that some of you realised the iPhone was a pointless waist of money! People who can THINK are not what advertisers want.
Where the real money (bottom line) of social media lives is that, done properly, you might just be able to reach a few high value individuals who are very resistant to main stream advertising. This is very interesting.
It is not a replacement for normal marketing it is an addition. Those people who aggressively do not follow fashion. Not because they are unfashionable, but because they hate being told what to do. This is where I think social media can really boost bottom lines.
AJ
Dan York
· 2 years ago
Chris, Great post... but one little detail - the Cluetrain Manifesto was published online (http://www.cluetrain.net/ )back in early *1999*. It came out in "treeware" form in 2001, but it was already causing a stir out in Internet-land. In fact, one of the reasons I moved to Ottawa in 2000 to join a startup which led down the path to where I am now was because the folks at that startup ("e-smith") were very interested in direct engagement with customers and creating conversations. The marketing director had lactually eft Macleans magazine where he was an editor to work for the startup precisely because he had read Cluetrain and wanted to try out some of the principles in a startup. So it was making waves even then before it appeared in printed form.
I do agree with you, though, that it took a while for the conversations to really start happening in a massive way. In, I think, 2003, I vividly recall a series of conversations with a marketing director I knew who, after reading the whole book, still didn't buy it. "Show me the conversations about my product?" she said. I couldn't then, but can today. The newer tools we use in social media - blogs, podcasts, wikis, etc. - and also the more "traditional" tools of web forums have enabled those conversations to occur in ways that weren't as easy before. Today I would definitely argue that Cluetrain is here, now, and happening all around us.
Anyway, thanks for the great post and the cautionary words as well.
Dan York
· 2 years ago
Chris, it turns out that you and I were both wrong on the first publication date of Cluetrain as a book. I found a mention of the book in my first blog entry in May 2000 and after finding my copy on my bookshelf discovered that the *first* printing was actually in December 1999. This also lines up with the copyright shown on http://www.cluetrain.com/book/ - I assume the 2001 date (which is also what Amazon currently shows) must be for a second edition.
Will
· 2 years ago
"Long Tail"? No, not MBA phrases on this nice site....arghhh.. :)
CT Moore
· 2 years ago
I think the problem that non-online-centric businesses have is a lack of understanding, and people tend to fear what they don't understand. Communication professionals have spent decades honing their media and public relations skills, and now there's a whole new facet of "new media" that they likely feel intimidated by because they don't know it inside-out like they do other forms of media.
What it comes down to, though, is that there's an ADDITIONAL facet to the realm of communication, and any serious professional needs to understand this new media facet as well as the more conventional forms if they are going to be effective communicators. I've tried quelling Strumpette-style backlash against this facet, but to no avail as of yet: http://gypsybandito.com/front-page-20/
thefemgeek
· 2 years ago
I think "the premise that companies can hire someone to make their product more loved by a group of people" actually worked fine in the "olden days" when the only form of communication was radio, the new invention called the television, and any kind of billboard ad. It worked well then because people at that time mostly communicated within their neighborhoods and possibly at the workplace, which wasn't far from their neighborhood, and most likely everyone agreed on a particular way of life. It was The Man in the Grey Flannel Suit" era. But you're right that today it is silly to follow that premise because communities are no longer defined by your neighborhood and workplace. Technology has widen the definition and now it is associated more with reaching out i.e. social networks. I think Facebook is a prime example of this just in it's platform (compared to Myspace) as it use networks to show how we are reaching out. I have friends in Canada, Scotland, Pakistan, all over. This is my community. Can they honestly feel that we all agree on liking everything the same. NO. So you need to start looking inside the community and finding out who likes what and letting them reach out to their "network buddies" as if they are campaigning for the product, the idea, or possibly a solution. I honestly do feel that if you try to use the concept "make their product more loved by a group of people", today you will turn away even the person who may be able to use what you have to offer. Because now people are starting to interact in a way that requires the connection of these new networks. If I buy an iPhone, is it really a cool device to use because of it's cool capabilities or is it more because I know that I have friends who use it as well and can share in the experience of those capabilities. In some cases those capabilities can only be used by sharing.
Just my thoughts
michelle lamar
· 2 years ago
Great post, great point. You said what I've been thinking for a long time. You just said it way better than I ever could have.
All Comments
I'm nurturing relationships for the conversations they make possible; for the ideas and the sparks. I'm interacting because these ideas turn into other ideas and help my clients down the road.
Thanks for giving me ways to connect with some fine people and do what I'm doing today.
thanks for visiting my blog.
thanks for twittering about this post. i have started looking for your tiny url to visit. thanks!
The thing that I think is derailing people is that some people don't seem to grasp that communities created in virtual environments are as real and influential, and in some ways more real and influential as those created at workplaces and neighborhoods.
For those who have adapted to the new environment it is obvious that those I twitter with and facebook with and blog with know more about me than possibly the hypothetical guy in the next cube. Because our environment is conversational we talk about more as who we are is defined by how we project ourselves.
I think the social networks may be more influential because of:
1) the amount of dialog/discussion (or conversations to use the parlance of the cluetrain manifesto)
2) the ability to connect on interest - down to very specific interests.
3) The global nature. My network covers the nation and so the impact goes beyond a small circle. The connections may be looser but there are so many more.
Keep asking the right questions. I've got a few of them hitting tomorrow.
I had lunch with an amazing guy yesterday, Doug Taylor, from Podcast People. We spoke about many things, but the personal interaction, the "I'm here in the moment and interested in finding out about you, how I can help You today and in the future" rather than "What can I get from you?" makes all the difference in the conversation.
This is part of the shift that's happening, I think- a bit of a rebellion against rapacious capitalism, and more thinking about planting seeds for long term, not just quarterly results. It's hard to think long term when you're worried about tommorrow, but if you can''t keep an eye on both, all you have is short term results and nothing in the end.
This is the same reason I avoid Walmart whenever possible, that I take my car repair business to a local guy that actually knows my name, and my liquor purchases to a guy that's a member of my golf club. I think people are very weary of being analyzed, polled, and manipulated like they were just so many cattle. They are hungry for and very welcoming of being treated as a potential friend as opposed to a potential mark.
"I think people are very weary of being analyzed, polled, and manipulated like they were just so many cattle."
Amen, brother.
Community developers and marketers alike would do well to bear this in mind.
-Jon G.
We're a complex bunch, we social media types...
People involved with social media think 'wow this is huge'. Well, in terms of the number of people we communicate with bi-directionally, yes they are huge. But in terms of the mono-directional media like advertising, social media are very small.
Then you add that issue that people involved with social media are leaders more than sheep. The media is so young that the sheep are only just joining. Hey - you guys are so well clude in that some of you realised the iPhone was a pointless waist of money! People who can THINK are not what advertisers want.
Where the real money (bottom line) of social media lives is that, done properly, you might just be able to reach a few high value individuals who are very resistant to main stream advertising. This is very interesting.
It is not a replacement for normal marketing it is an addition. Those people who aggressively do not follow fashion. Not because they are unfashionable, but because they hate being told what to do. This is where I think social media can really boost bottom lines.
AJ
I do agree with you, though, that it took a while for the conversations to really start happening in a massive way. In, I think, 2003, I vividly recall a series of conversations with a marketing director I knew who, after reading the whole book, still didn't buy it. "Show me the conversations about my product?" she said. I couldn't then, but can today. The newer tools we use in social media - blogs, podcasts, wikis, etc. - and also the more "traditional" tools of web forums have enabled those conversations to occur in ways that weren't as easy before. Today I would definitely argue that Cluetrain is here, now, and happening all around us.
Anyway, thanks for the great post and the cautionary words as well.
What it comes down to, though, is that there's an ADDITIONAL facet to the realm of communication, and any serious professional needs to understand this new media facet as well as the more conventional forms if they are going to be effective communicators. I've tried quelling Strumpette-style backlash against this facet, but to no avail as of yet: http://gypsybandito.com/front-page-20/
Just my thoughts