With apologies to Chris who I don't blame for using a juicy, traffic-friendly headline, I'm so tired of people predicting the death of podcasting. I've been a podcaster since October of 2004, and I've heard this one before.
Of course, Chris gets to his real point later in the post -- that it's all about content, and that treating podcasting like other forms of distributed media is proving to be misguided, Blubrry's (always sounds like "blubbery" in my mind's ear) case notwithstanding.
I'm a champion of podcasting. An evangelist, even. But for four years and counting, I've always stressed that a new podcaster should not think of it as a money-making venture in and of itself. Rather, a podcast can be an excellent tool to market whatever it is you want to make money with.
And, of course, podcasting doesn't have to be about the money at all. It's a means of expression, a tool through which nearly anyone can communicate one-to-many and one-to-one simultaneously. Jim has it right: the return on investment is in the relationships forged. Any direct monetary benefit through sponsorships or (very, very rare) subscription models is a bonus.
Also: I'm sorry, Artem, but making sweeping generalizations like...
People want to do 2 things on the Internet: - watch short videos - read short messages
... is almost as silly as saying something like "Podcasting is dead." I mean, if you really believed in brevity, you wouldn't write 800 word blog posts on your own site.
I'll counter with a sweeping generalization of my own, just for fun:
The Internet -- like podcasting -- is whatever people want for it to be.
Steven Lubetkin
· 12 months ago
I've been saying this for several years in different ways, Chris. The advertising supported model of podcasting just doesn't work at the rates people are willing to pay -- and at the listener/viewership levels that most podcasts generate. For the amount of time I was expected to spend adding special redirects to my podcast URLs, and inserting locally voiced commercial copy, the ad deals generated next to nothing when I tried them. I would make more money working the grill at McDonald's for a day a week.
The business model that works is using professional broadcast production skills to help companies create well-produced, good sounding podcast programming that reaches a particular niche audience. It's about a more targeted, more effective replacement for direct mail. We produce podcasts that are specific to small but key audiences for our clients, and that meets their needs. They are more than happy to compensate us for our talent in creating highly listenable podcasts that sound or look like real radio and TV.
Dave Winer
· 12 months ago
Podcasting is not dead -- it just isn't what these guys thought it would be. No big deal. Now we can get on with what it really is. :-)
olivier blanchard
· 12 months ago
Podcasts are tricky. They take time to produce (well), and time to listen to. In terms of sheer velocity and time management, they're the heaviest of all the SocMed/blogging tools in the toolbox. They also take a certain degree of skill to be done correctly. Almost anyone can write a blog post or click off 140-character tweets - very few people can actually pull off a regular podcast.
And you need a little bit of gear too, which creates an additional barrier of entry. (It doesn't take much these days.)
Add all of that together and what you get is a model that's difficult to scale. Will podcasts go away? No. Is podcasting dead? No. But if your revenue is directly tied to the growth (or sustainability) of podcasting, then yeah, you might have trouble paying the bills. I just don't see podcasting really growing anytime soon. The market probably isn't large enough to support every podcast service indefinitely. Perhaps we'll end up with just one or two in the end.
Melody Campbell, The Small Bus
· 12 months ago
You wrote "In the end, want to make money with podcasting? Figure out how to make money not on the media itself, but on what the media represents. Simple, and yet elusive."
Perfect! Exactly!
I have recorded / produced my Get More Business Show for nearly two years now. It started out as a "podcast" (started at TalkShoe.com) and now I officially call it my Internet Radio Show (over at BlogTalkRadio.com).
I don't make a dime on the show directly. I have received numerous phone calls and emails requesting coaching.
My format is interview style and this allows me to "network up". Some of my expert guests actually refer people to me for Virtual Buzz Coaching.
When I invite a guest they almost always check out my list of previous guests, like who they see on the list and say "yes" to my invitation.
For me the Get More Business Show is not much different than my blog in that it's a conversation generator - conversations with my market and conversations with peers and experts. The better I make connections the more coaching and other income generating opportunities come my way.
Now I have been invited to help authors and coaches create the same tool to generate conversations around their message. What a blast! So many opportunities, so little time.
As always, thought provoking, Chris!
Melody
Ari Herzog
· 12 months ago
I don't know of any candy bar vending machines in these parts, but I do know the Snickers at the White Hen convenience store will be slightly cheaper than at CVS pharmacy which will be slightly cheaper than that at Shaw's Supermarket.
I also know the retail cost of manufacturing, distributing, and tagging the Snickers bar at 99 cents is much more than the wholesale cost, should I desire to buy it in bulk at Wal-Mart or Costco.
Perhaps one answer to this podcasting dilemma is to provide different purchasing models, e.g. retail vs wholesale, CVS vs Costco. By analogy, think of a song you can listen to in entirety at blip.fm but only a few seconds at iTunes.
Virtual Assistant
· 12 months ago
I never really bought into the hype about podcasts. I tend to agree with your last point. They're a great way to convey information, or share feelings or just be silly and have some fun. Personally I'm a camera-phobe so you won't be seeing me on YouTube anytime soon. I think it's great for all of those people who enjoy making and watching podcasts. But I don't buy the idea that it's the best way or the wave of the future as far as marketing is concerned.
Bob Knorpp
· 12 months ago
I couldn't have said this any better. This is exactly the model I adopted when starting The BeanCast and the results have been phenomenal. By not making the show itself into the profit center, it's freed me to develop the show at a more considered pace. And even though I do no outward promotion of my consultation practice on the program, it's still positions me as an expert in my space, in-touch with other experts, and has generated considerable leads. Maybe one day there will be room for true networks, but for the moment podcasting is mostly a means of continuing the conversation already going on in the blogs and forums.
Ryan Stephens
· 12 months ago
The fundamental flaw for podcasts (not videoblogging) for me is that most of them are just TOO LONG, and I don't want to listen for 30-45 minutes for 3-5 minutes of something that's relevant and important to me. Even interviews with industry leaders, thought leaders, etc. I'm NOT listening to it.
I can easily skim to the parts I want to read and know more about within a blog post. I think for MOST podcasts to succeed with a 'general audience' they need to stay short and sweet, and I agree that making money via podcasting needs to be based on the media it represents.
If it's short and informative it is a great way to share some information and give your audience a sense of your personality (and if yours is dynamic and charismatic like Gary V's then that's a good thing).
Barbara
· 12 months ago
Until content providers figure out what the new rules are for podcasting, it won't be a successful medium for them. Unfortunately, most are stuck in the "advertising" model, which fails time after time. I agree, that podcasts shouldn't have to "sell" anything. Perhaps providing valuable content and building reputation should be enough.
Steven Lubetkin
· 12 months ago
I'd like to put the "it's too long" meme to bed. Podcasts should be exactly as long as they need to be for the content. Sometimes that's short, sometimes it's not. We don't see a lot of difference in the number of downloads because of the length. That's because podcast listeners are seeking out the content, and if it's important to them, they will listen regardless of length.
We produced a podcast of a panel discussion on new treatment modalities for ovarian cancer that included a gynecologic oncologist, a nurse who develops family risk assessments through genetic analyses, and five ovarian cancer survivors, including a prominent New Jersey political leader who hosted the event. The entire podcast runs more than two hours.
Most people reading this will recoil in horror at that length, but I can guarantee you that the length was not a deterrent to the nearly 1,200 people who have downloaded that program -- people who needed the information for themselves or a loved one. Listen for yourselves at this link.
Don't be swayed by the "conventional wisdom." The whole value of podcasting as a communications channel is that you aren't constrained by traditional broadcast schedules or timing. Three minutes isn't a podcast, it's an infomercial. Podcasting is long-form radio or TV, and the length should not be formulaic, it should be determined by the value of the content.
Stephen
· 12 months ago
Thanks Chris, I'm in the middle of transferring a local radio show (GreenplanetFM) that's been on air for 4 years into a Podcast. We're looking at different ways to monetize the podcast as the current model that is the show gets paid for out of the presenters pocket.
We've put it on the local radio show's website, a networking website and are looking at iTunes as well. Next step is to have the podcasts running off the show's own website http://www.greenplanetfm.com and we're looking at doing it with Wordpress and podpress. Thing is, that's where there's gonna be more expense for the presenter. Any suggestions?
Yann Ropars
· 12 months ago
For us podcast are used to create superior content and always focused on the 'higher purpose' of the brand. We then optimize the podcast in different ways being blogs, case studies, pdfs....
Mark
· 12 months ago
I agree with your thoughts about podcasting. To make money directly from this media is not simple. Using podcasting to showcase what else you do can make sense. For fun it makes sense as well. Although blogging and twittering is easier in many ways I don't see podcasting as dead. The form is evolving and these network biz models will evolve or go away.
Form and structure in business is changing faster than ever. Staying light and flexible is the way I'm flowing.
Meji - 365HUSTLE.COM
· 12 months ago
Podcasting just never did "it" for me. Can't explain why...
Brandon
· 12 months ago
Actually, I don't think its dead, it hasn't reached its full potential yet. There are millions of people outside of our techy box that do not know what a podcast is yet. I liken it to the adaptation of Internet Explorer latest compared to the users who still use the old Internet Explorer 6 seems a to be a 20% adaptation every two years to the new technology, its the same with podcasting most likely. There is still an applicable market share to be reached, reaching them with a non-tech message is the key, in my opinion... but then again, I don't podcast.
Colleen O'Donnell Pierce
· 12 months ago
As an occasional consumer of podcasts, I must concur that the only important thing about the podcast in terms of whether I downloaded and whether I listened was the content and the content only (and length is immaterial so long as it's appropriate to the content).
The convenient thing about podcasts -- like Chris's vending machine idea -- is that they're always available, whenever I want them, easily accessible -- but I'm only interested if they're FREE. Just like those industry "newsletters" that try to use a subscription model and find that their readership is tiny, you'd better be offering something unbelievably and universally amazing to expect people to pay for what they could find elsewhere, qualitatively speaking, for free.
What I love about podcasting is the ability to convey any and every kind of message at will. If there's an audience for what you're communicating, you can find them, and they can find you -- and without relying on any outside parties. To me, that's the beauty of podcasting. And while it may be dead/dying as a business model, I think as a communications medium it is only just beginning.
Carter Harkins
· 12 months ago
Business models and uses of podcasting aside (an area I care about professionally), I had hoped the ideals of a many-to-many communication relationship would thrive in podcasting, which shows (or showed) so much promise in bringing together content creators with their audiences to generate dialogue and community. It seems that so many podcasting efforts and companies largely ignored this aspect, and chose to simply try recreating broadcast pipelines they could monetize with third-party advertising tacked on. I sometimes wonder if the stagnant growth of podcasting audiences is due in no small part to the "same-as-broadcast-but-via-RSS" mentality that has pervaded. Could it be that community was more important than commercialization after all?
Joel Mark Witt
· 12 months ago
Couldn't agree more Chris.
Joel mark witt
Whitney
· 12 months ago
Podcasting is a tool for delivering a message, just the same as a blog or a newspaper- it's just audio, like radio on demand. It's perfect for delivering niche content (like The Financial Aid Podcast, WineLibrary TV or even my own podcast about learning disabilities and learning in general, the LD Podcast) that might not have enough of a general audience to warrant a show on NPR or commercial radio. The question at the end of the day is- how long will this free content be around? How long will people continue to produce the content at no cost, based on their passion alone? Clearly, people have to eat, and while server space and hosting is relatively cheap, it's still not free. Everyone just has to realize it's always going to be about the content- the snickers, as Chris put it, not the vending machine- the podcast is just another information delivery method. What it's worth, how to value it, and how to make it economically successful depends on your whole business model which as in any business, has to be about something more than "build it and they will come." Community is fantastic, but community is friends and not necessarily business. And if we want to get podcasting or any other tool out of the realm of a giant tupperware party where you are only trying to sell to your friends, you need to do what's necessary to become interesting to the mainstream. And that's going to have to be, by volume alone, about more than just a podcast.
whatsnext
· 12 months ago
Podcasting isn't dead. Most of it is just so boring it seems that way.
As you said, it's content, and the best content, like yours, always rises to the top. The rest falls away.
Artem Russakovskii
· 12 months ago
Podcasting will be dead soon.
People want to do 2 things on the Internet: - watch short videos - read short messages
The common part there is "short". The attention span of a regular person on the Internet is, that's right "short". That's why Twitter and Youtube are getting more and more popular every day while Podcasting popularity is dying down.
stefan
· 12 months ago
There are two ways a podcast can become profitable. Join a collective of podcasts where everyone does profit sharing or develop a super intense niche.
Most podcasts should be in support of another project. The new business model for podcasts should be to support an established business. If I owned a small brick and morter store, I would do a podcast to support it by focusing on my business and the surrounding area i.e. if I owned a restaurant, I would do a cooking show and then advertise specials and other events in the area.
Otherwise, I would find a site that collected podcasts and then pool resources to create a syndicate. Podcasting as a financial goal is almost impossible.The audience isn't large enough to support a national audience and most podcasts aren't regionally specific to attract that kind of marketing dollar.
I love podcasts and try to support them as much as I can. There are so many talented people that create podcasts out of the love of the craft that beg for donations. The winner of the podcasting game will the person that figures out a way to create a revenue source through various channels much like satellite radio.
Christopher Penn, Financial Ai
· 12 months ago
I remind others of this:
Amazon.com started in 1995. It became profitable in 2001.
Podcasting started in 2004-2005.
It's not 2011 yet.
Todd Cochrane
· 12 months ago
Podcasting is not dead in fact Rawvoice / Blubrry and the podcasters we have on ad buys have had a banner year. As a company we are profitable and in great shape for 2009. Ad buys for Q1-2009 are on track to be as good as 2008 numbers. Our media hosting and publishing services are on track.
Podcasting is alive and well audience consumption continues to grow. While nothing is without challenge our company is well set to weather the economic storm.
While i feel bad for Podango you cannot give stuff awsy forever and survive. RawVoice stands ready to help any podcaster move there media onto our world class CDN and give them 30 days free media hosting to help them get moved.
Todd CEO Rawvoice / Blubrry
David LaMorte
· 11 months ago
I agree with Chris Penn. All of these marketing people want everything to pay off now, and most things need to ruminate.
Jim Canterucci
· 11 months ago
There are many reasons that I podcast (since Dec 2006 - over 100 episodes) but the most significant is the relationships that develop with my brilliant guests (like you Chris, for one). Yes, it takes work. More than blogging, at least for me. But, like blogging it is a discipline, it is in service of a community, and it is an expression of thought.
Just recently I was offered a combo radio promo/podcast sponsorship for Personal Brilliance - Up Close and Practical. That's nice but isn't a primary goal for doing it. Find your purpose for making the investment regardless of money and if the money comes treat it as a bonus, would be my advice.
reiko beach
· 11 months ago
i agree with Whitney, we do video, and for our clients we advise them that it is a tool to help them promote themselves and their business. Same with podcasts, for the people looking for the information, it's going to be invaluable. it creates more conversation, spur interest, and most importantly make the presenter a source, promote them as an expert in their field.
Tony Farley
· 11 months ago
I think the only way podcasting will become profitable and mainstream is if the delivery method is changed. I've always said that when my Dad and his friends (60-70 years old) can watch my show (Beautiful Places) as easily as they can watch Wheel Of Fortune, I will then be a success and be making a ton of money. Right now, podcasting is reachable only by nerds that are willing to load a couple programs, search for a site (that they need to remember), and then wait for a download, hoping nothing goes wrong. That's too many steps. I have people in my family that love me and love to hear about what I am doing, but they have never seen the show because they can't even figure out their email.
We need a unified way of viewing content. tv, movies, podcasts, and family photos. Everything needs to be reachable by one remote control. I think AppleTV is moving in this direction, but not fast enough to save a lot of good companies and podcasts.
Tony
Tim Coyne
· 11 months ago
As usual, this monetization conversation clouds what's really happening out there.
Talk to any podcaster who isn't trying to make money or any avid podcast listener and you'll know that podcasting is far from dead.
Money?
Just like anything else, if you have the audience numbers then you'll make money. But, as I'm often reminded by Seth Godin posts, it's best to focus on who IS listening rather than who isn't.
Matthew Wayne Selznick
· 11 months ago
Tim Coyne is on the money -- as is Seth Godin.
Tony said,
We need a unified way of viewing content. tv, movies, podcasts, and family photos. Everything needs to be reachable by one remote control. I think AppleTV is moving in this direction, but not fast enough to save a lot of good companies and podcasts.
TiVO Series 3 and, to a lesser degree, TiVO Series 2 DVRs are podcast-ready, video or audio. Also, they enable networking with your computer -- and yes, you can watch family photos and access the music on your computer as well. Cheaper (I think?) than AppleTV and probably in more homes.
I have a TiVO Series 2 (just got it, late adopter) and I watch several video podcasts right there on the television. I'm someone who never watched regular vidcasts on my computer. Now, I catch iFanboy, Cranky Geeks, and other shows the same way I catch time-shifted episodes of Life and Fringe.
Worth looking into!
goldsteinmedia
· 11 months ago
Chris,
I don't think podcasting is dead. I do think it is different than what was originally planned. I feel like this argument is coming from the same people that said blogging is dead. Neither are. There is always going to be a market out there for podcasts and blogs. Some will be professional, some will be corporate and there will always be a grass roots movement that does it for free and some that do it part time for fun. That being said, like in life, things evolve and often we don't have control over this evolutionary track. We need to constantly be updating our thinking of these Web technologies and how we use them.
Thanks Matthew. Can you get Beautiful Places? That's what I'm talking about though, an easy and unified way to get and find and watch whatever you want. Tivo version 3 looks like it is moving in the right direction. My parents and friends have Dish and Comcast. Hopefully these companies will go the way Tivo is going.
When this happens, the number of podcast viewers (maybe not so much with audio podcasts) will increase dramatically. When Beautiful Places gets 0.1% of the TV viewers, I'll be making a living off it. I hope.
Tony
Jeremiah Staes
· 11 months ago
Podcasting is nowhere near dead. It's one of the fastest growing segments of our business, but we've been doing it for awhile (we're coming up on four years).
The cold reality? It's not about the length. There is no magic formula; there are immensely successful (tens or hundreds of thousands of listeners) long format and short format ones. The most successful podcast and network (with it's ad buys completely filled) can run longer than an hour sometimes. It's a red herring; as usual when it comes to the online space or frankly anything, the "short" meme is from people wanting to apply an engineering-like formula to shortcut around creating good content. It happened when I worked in broadcast TV ten years ago, it's happening here now. (Everything old is new again, after all).
It's that we're getting the wheat from the chaff.
The good stuff will continue to grow; and those who got in, thinking it's yet-another-get-rich scheme are going to leave, and those who underestimated the work it takes to create quality content will leave, too. There are both ad-supported and service-supporting successful podcasts; so that's where I'll have to disagree with you, Chris. But if you're going to be ad-supported, you better be good and realize that you need to create your content to appeal to the sorts of audience numbers that advertising works for. If you're a service, you can successfully play the hyper-niche game (assuming you're looking to have a justifiable, monetary return).
As to Podango, I believe they had some business issues with not being able to deliver for weeks on end for paid contracts due to an unfortunate catastrophic illness of a key player. If anything, from what I understand through the public chatter, the failure of Podango is not of podcasting, but of succession/emergency planning.
Rob White
· 11 months ago
Chris, I don't believe podcasting is dead. Like others, I've heard it before and it's still around. Podcasting, like most technologies, is evolving, not dying. This evolution is sending it to video and vlogging, but the audio podcast will be around for a long time because there are people that rely on the audio podcast for their running, jogging, exercise time and even commute time. You can't easily watch a video doing most of those activities.
The main reason that some say podcasting is dead is due to the fact of so many producing no content or meaningless podcasts about nothing in particular. These are the podcasts that die, while the good ones with worthwhile content and a good message will be around as long as there are people wanting hear what is being said!
Dave Kawalec
· 11 months ago
Hey Chris, what I remember from 2006 is that everyone was just really excited about what podcasting could be. There was very little clarity then even about what podcasting was at that moment, let alone what it was going to be years later. It was a lot of guessing fueled by optimism, experimentation and a handful of advertising/PR "stunt buys" masquerading as case studies pointing to the future of monetization. And then a few guys in Boston put together a weekend "Camp" to get us all in the same room so we could all talk to each other...
Lee and Doug were among the ones out front leading the charge, and I'm sorry to see that it looks like Podango isn't going to make it.
Rusty Speidel
· 11 months ago
Our podcast is about NASCAR. It's funny, informative, useful to race fans, and marries valuable, expert information with entertainment. So we thought, "wow, we're gonna get rich! Huge market, great content, weekly topics to discuss...what's not to like?" We've been on iTunes for free for three years now, and everyone loves us there. But when we tried to charge for it ($4.95/month), subscriptions immediately dropped by 90%. That experiment lasted about 3 months and probably cost us half our audience.
What we're doing now is using it to start conversations, as many of you are suggesting. But what's new is we're getting paid to include our sponsors in those conversations, providing their product or service a racing context and audience of loyal fans. If we say it's good, our fans support it. WOM at its best!
We are obviously targeting sponsors who want to be a part of the racing conversation, just like old-time radio did. None of this is that new--I keep saying that the only real changes are to the distribution channels and delivery platforms, not the value system.
Rusty Speidel
· 11 months ago
Oh, and we produce a 30-40 minute show 6 days a week and get about 60,000 downloads a month, and growing, just from iTunes. I am planning to double or triple that in 2009 if I can. E-me!
Frankie Johnson
· 11 months ago
Maybe the problem is that we are lumping together Snickers and dinner. Some audio (and video) original content makes sense as a little snack in the midst of other content. It's a change of pace from all that damn text. Let's call this short, focused thing a "podpost". Some content is far meatier and deserving of our full attention for a longer period. Informational content aimed at a clearly defined audience tends to be this way. It's longer and may have some monetary value for the listener. Let's use the word "podcast" here. OK? Glad we cleared that up... :)
Tony Farley
· 11 months ago
I think there is a huge element of "this is not new anymore, and therefore not cool anymore" in this whole notion that podcasting is dead. It's moving toward the mainstream and so some very innovation minded people are looking beyond.
Tony
Mignon Fogarty
· 11 months ago
The Quick and Dirty Tips podcast network (home of Grammar Girl, Money Girl, Modern Manners Guy, Public Speaker, Nutrition Diva, Mighty Mommy, etc) had a fantastic 2008, and our business is exactly what we thought it would be when we launched it in 2006.
We support our network on advertising, so you can't say the model doesn't work.
We also make sure we're diversified with products and other services. It would be bad business to rely on any one revenue stream.
Although I greatly prefer short podcasts, I don't think success is about length. There are long podcasts that are successful too. TWiT is over an hour, for example.
I believe having a strong brand, consistently delivering high-quality content, and treating your podcast or network like a business (if you intend it to be a business) are the keys to success.
Quired
· 11 months ago
Absolutely, podcasting is not dead if you define it as means of inspiring, engaging, enrolling and educating someone around an idea, a product, a service or an event.
Knowledge is power and audio is a highly effective means of drawing someone into a concept. I personally feel it is less about the device and more about the server.
Login to whatever device you are on whether it be an ipod, a phone, a TV, a computer, a car radio or a kiosk, go to your bookmark and continue to listen. As long as the device is connected you are engaged.
Yes, I know we are not that wired yet but someday soon.
Want to read more about what you are listening to, then click on related articles. Interested in the product, then click on the related product intro video then click purchase.
Or browse through testimonials before you commit.
Then (here is an idea) go ahead and give the rep a call and start to build a relationship just like the old days.
But now you are armed with knowledge which now puts you in the driver seat. Not the rep.
Audio will continue to grow with social media. Podcasting won't once everything is wired.
Joel Mark Witt
· 11 months ago
@Mignon there are always exceptions. Q&D Network is a success yes. But my question is this - after 2 years why don't we have more examples besides your network to look at? Maybe the network itself is the answer... Or the how-to content... Or it could be that you are just really good at what you do. But most podcasters haven't had the success that you and a very select few have had.
- Joel Mark Witt
Whitney
· 11 months ago
@JoelMarkWitt- Mignon has done a great job of co-branding the podcasts on her site- they hang together both visually and to an extent, topically. I think if we start thinking of podcasting networks as more like multimedia magazines, as logically put together, it will make both attracting advertisers and listeners easier. We have to start thinking of podcast networks as for like the Food Network, Bravo or DIY channel- things that have a fit, rather than a mishmash together because the producers all know each other. :)
Joel Mark Witt
· 11 months ago
@Frankie Johnson
That "damned text" you speak of drives everything online. Text is the best compression technology of info. Text is scannable - searchable - and can be consumed offline after being printed on actual paper. Text was here before podcasting and will be here after.
I do see your point about snack vs dinner though - and I agree.
- Joel Mark Witt
Quired
· 11 months ago
Joel Mark Witt,
Text doesn't hold up so well in the car, when you are working out or when you are walking around at home or even in the office.(Which can add up to a large portion of a day)
When I think of audio I think of the days of families gathering around the radio to listen together. Print was for dad reading the paper and telling the kids to get lost.
Obviously text has many, many applications but audio has plenty of room for growth.
Audio can already be searched and is as portable as any piece of paper if you have the right device.
But it is definitely not good bullet points and quick overviews.
Frankie Johnson
· 11 months ago
Oh no, I didn't mean to start a text vs. audio war. Maybe it was video that I needed to show my tongue firmly in my cheek when I was damning text. Words are wonderful, in print or in the air. Sometimes we read, sometimes we listen, sometimes we mix it up. Ain't life grand?
Joel Mark Witt
· 11 months ago
@Frankie Johnson
No war - just comments. I see that tongue - and you're right it is firmly placed in the side of your cheek. :-)
- Joel Mark Witt
Joel Mark Witt
· 11 months ago
By the way - how do I get a nifty photo on here like all the rest of the cool people?
- Joel Mark Witt
Frankie Johnson
· 11 months ago
@Joel Mark Witt. If you want to be seen, go to http://en.gravatar.com and sign up. Use the same email address whenever you comment, and your pic will appear on gravatar enabled blogs.
Mignon Fogarty
· 11 months ago
@Joel Mark Witt -- Whitney definitely has at least part of it right. I think of Quick and Dirty Tips as a magazine in a way. The podcasts we create are what magazines call "service articles" -- short, very fact-oriented articles that contain advice and useful information.
We work hard to create really powerful brands for our shows and a brand for our network so that all the shows hang together. It's not a coincidence that our shows all use the same format and have similar names and logos.
I also think consistent delivery -- getting a show out every week no matter what -- is important. In fact, I just finished my show for tomorrow. Some people might slack off because it's New Year's Eve, but I know that my listeners expect to get a show tomorrow whether it's a holiday or not.
Good audio quality is important too. I don't think there are many successful shows that sound as if they were recorded on a telephone. It's much harder to record a show with multiple hosts or guests and keep the audio quality up. That's why our shows have only one host.
Frankie is also right that text is really important. We put full transcripts of all our podcasts on our website. That gives Google something to index (and people who don't listen to podcast something to read). We get pretty significant traffic from search engines. Some people will just read the pages, but I suspect we also regularly get new podcast listeners that way. It's also a place where we can give advertisers a link.
I believe Quick and Dirty Tips is are successful because we put a lot of thought and energy into how we present our shows and into our business model, and we have solid partnerships, but there are other success stories out there. People are making money, people are using podcasts as marketing tools, and some people are just pursuing a hobby they love.
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Of course, Chris gets to his real point later in the post -- that it's all about content, and that treating podcasting like other forms of distributed media is proving to be misguided, Blubrry's (always sounds like "blubbery" in my mind's ear) case notwithstanding.
I'm a champion of podcasting. An evangelist, even. But for four years and counting, I've always stressed that a new podcaster should not think of it as a money-making venture in and of itself. Rather, a podcast can be an excellent tool to market whatever it is you want to make money with.
And, of course, podcasting doesn't have to be about the money at all. It's a means of expression, a tool through which nearly anyone can communicate one-to-many and one-to-one simultaneously. Jim has it right: the return on investment is in the relationships forged. Any direct monetary benefit through sponsorships or (very, very rare) subscription models is a bonus.
Also: I'm sorry, Artem, but making sweeping generalizations like...
... is almost as silly as saying something like "Podcasting is dead." I mean, if you really believed in brevity, you wouldn't write 800 word blog posts on your own site.
I'll counter with a sweeping generalization of my own, just for fun:
The Internet -- like podcasting -- is whatever people want for it to be.
The business model that works is using professional broadcast production skills to help companies create well-produced, good sounding podcast programming that reaches a particular niche audience. It's about a more targeted, more effective replacement for direct mail. We produce podcasts that are specific to small but key audiences for our clients, and that meets their needs. They are more than happy to compensate us for our talent in creating highly listenable podcasts that sound or look like real radio and TV.
And you need a little bit of gear too, which creates an additional barrier of entry. (It doesn't take much these days.)
Add all of that together and what you get is a model that's difficult to scale. Will podcasts go away? No. Is podcasting dead? No. But if your revenue is directly tied to the growth (or sustainability) of podcasting, then yeah, you might have trouble paying the bills. I just don't see podcasting really growing anytime soon. The market probably isn't large enough to support every podcast service indefinitely. Perhaps we'll end up with just one or two in the end.
Perfect! Exactly!
I have recorded / produced my Get More Business Show for nearly two years now. It started out as a "podcast" (started at TalkShoe.com) and now I officially call it my Internet Radio Show (over at BlogTalkRadio.com).
I don't make a dime on the show directly. I have received numerous phone calls and emails requesting coaching.
My format is interview style and this allows me to "network up". Some of my expert guests actually refer people to me for Virtual Buzz Coaching.
When I invite a guest they almost always check out my list of previous guests, like who they see on the list and say "yes" to my invitation.
For me the Get More Business Show is not much different than my blog in that it's a conversation generator - conversations with my market and conversations with peers and experts. The better I make connections the more coaching and other income generating opportunities come my way.
Now I have been invited to help authors and coaches create the same tool to generate conversations around their message. What a blast! So many opportunities, so little time.
As always, thought provoking, Chris!
Melody
I also know the retail cost of manufacturing, distributing, and tagging the Snickers bar at 99 cents is much more than the wholesale cost, should I desire to buy it in bulk at Wal-Mart or Costco.
Perhaps one answer to this podcasting dilemma is to provide different purchasing models, e.g. retail vs wholesale, CVS vs Costco. By analogy, think of a song you can listen to in entirety at blip.fm but only a few seconds at iTunes.
I can easily skim to the parts I want to read and know more about within a blog post. I think for MOST podcasts to succeed with a 'general audience' they need to stay short and sweet, and I agree that making money via podcasting needs to be based on the media it represents.
If it's short and informative it is a great way to share some information and give your audience a sense of your personality (and if yours is dynamic and charismatic like Gary V's then that's a good thing).
We produced a podcast of a panel discussion on new treatment modalities for ovarian cancer that included a gynecologic oncologist, a nurse who develops family risk assessments through genetic analyses, and five ovarian cancer survivors, including a prominent New Jersey political leader who hosted the event. The entire podcast runs more than two hours.
Most people reading this will recoil in horror at that length, but I can guarantee you that the length was not a deterrent to the nearly 1,200 people who have downloaded that program -- people who needed the information for themselves or a loved one. Listen for yourselves at this link.
Don't be swayed by the "conventional wisdom." The whole value of podcasting as a communications channel is that you aren't constrained by traditional broadcast schedules or timing. Three minutes isn't a podcast, it's an infomercial. Podcasting is long-form radio or TV, and the length should not be formulaic, it should be determined by the value of the content.
We've put it on the local radio show's website, a networking website and are looking at iTunes as well. Next step is to have the podcasts running off the show's own website http://www.greenplanetfm.com and we're looking at doing it with Wordpress and podpress. Thing is, that's where there's gonna be more expense for the presenter. Any suggestions?
Form and structure in business is changing faster than ever. Staying light and flexible is the way I'm flowing.
There is still an applicable market share to be reached, reaching them with a non-tech message is the key, in my opinion... but then again, I don't podcast.
The convenient thing about podcasts -- like Chris's vending machine idea -- is that they're always available, whenever I want them, easily accessible -- but I'm only interested if they're FREE. Just like those industry "newsletters" that try to use a subscription model and find that their readership is tiny, you'd better be offering something unbelievably and universally amazing to expect people to pay for what they could find elsewhere, qualitatively speaking, for free.
What I love about podcasting is the ability to convey any and every kind of message at will. If there's an audience for what you're communicating, you can find them, and they can find you -- and without relying on any outside parties. To me, that's the beauty of podcasting. And while it may be dead/dying as a business model, I think as a communications medium it is only just beginning.
Joel mark witt
Everyone just has to realize it's always going to be about the content- the snickers, as Chris put it, not the vending machine- the podcast is just another information delivery method. What it's worth, how to value it, and how to make it economically successful depends on your whole business model which as in any business, has to be about something more than "build it and they will come." Community is fantastic, but community is friends and not necessarily business. And if we want to get podcasting or any other tool out of the realm of a giant tupperware party where you are only trying to sell to your friends, you need to do what's necessary to become interesting to the mainstream. And that's going to have to be, by volume alone, about more than just a podcast.
As you said, it's content, and the best content, like yours, always rises to the top. The rest falls away.
People want to do 2 things on the Internet:
- watch short videos
- read short messages
The common part there is "short". The attention span of a regular person on the Internet is, that's right "short". That's why Twitter and Youtube are getting more and more popular every day while Podcasting popularity is dying down.
Most podcasts should be in support of another project. The new business model for podcasts should be to support an established business. If I owned a small brick and morter store, I would do a podcast to support it by focusing on my business and the surrounding area i.e. if I owned a restaurant, I would do a cooking show and then advertise specials and other events in the area.
Otherwise, I would find a site that collected podcasts and then pool resources to create a syndicate. Podcasting as a financial goal is almost impossible.The audience isn't large enough to support a national audience and most podcasts aren't regionally specific to attract that kind of marketing dollar.
I love podcasts and try to support them as much as I can. There are so many talented people that create podcasts out of the love of the craft that beg for donations. The winner of the podcasting game will the person that figures out a way to create a revenue source through various channels much like satellite radio.
Amazon.com started in 1995. It became profitable in 2001.
Podcasting started in 2004-2005.
It's not 2011 yet.
Podcasting is alive and well audience consumption continues to grow. While nothing is without challenge our company is well set to weather the economic storm.
While i feel bad for Podango you cannot give stuff awsy forever and survive. RawVoice stands ready to help any podcaster move there media onto our world class CDN and give them 30 days free media hosting to help them get moved.
Todd
CEO Rawvoice / Blubrry
Just recently I was offered a combo radio promo/podcast sponsorship for Personal Brilliance - Up Close and Practical. That's nice but isn't a primary goal for doing it. Find your purpose for making the investment regardless of money and if the money comes treat it as a bonus, would be my advice.
We need a unified way of viewing content. tv, movies, podcasts, and family photos. Everything needs to be reachable by one remote control. I think AppleTV is moving in this direction, but not fast enough to save a lot of good companies and podcasts.
Tony
Talk to any podcaster who isn't trying to make money or any avid podcast listener and you'll know that podcasting is far from dead.
Money?
Just like anything else, if you have the audience numbers then you'll make money. But, as I'm often reminded by Seth Godin posts, it's best to focus on who IS listening rather than who isn't.
Tony said,
TiVO Series 3 and, to a lesser degree, TiVO Series 2 DVRs are podcast-ready, video or audio. Also, they enable networking with your computer -- and yes, you can watch family photos and access the music on your computer as well. Cheaper (I think?) than AppleTV and probably in more homes.
I have a TiVO Series 2 (just got it, late adopter) and I watch several video podcasts right there on the television. I'm someone who never watched regular vidcasts on my computer. Now, I catch iFanboy, Cranky Geeks, and other shows the same way I catch time-shifted episodes of Life and Fringe.
Worth looking into!
I don't think podcasting is dead. I do think it is different than what was originally planned. I feel like this argument is coming from the same people that said blogging is dead. Neither are. There is always going to be a market out there for podcasts and blogs. Some will be professional, some will be corporate and there will always be a grass roots movement that does it for free and some that do it part time for fun. That being said, like in life, things evolve and often we don't have control over this evolutionary track. We need to constantly be updating our thinking of these Web technologies and how we use them.
Dead, naw. Just different.
Keep up the good work and great blog.
Seth Goldstein
I'm on Twitter as sethgoldstein
When this happens, the number of podcast viewers (maybe not so much with audio podcasts) will increase dramatically. When Beautiful Places gets 0.1% of the TV viewers, I'll be making a living off it. I hope.
Tony
The cold reality? It's not about the length. There is no magic formula; there are immensely successful (tens or hundreds of thousands of listeners) long format and short format ones. The most successful podcast and network (with it's ad buys completely filled) can run longer than an hour sometimes. It's a red herring; as usual when it comes to the online space or frankly anything, the "short" meme is from people wanting to apply an engineering-like formula to shortcut around creating good content. It happened when I worked in broadcast TV ten years ago, it's happening here now. (Everything old is new again, after all).
It's that we're getting the wheat from the chaff.
The good stuff will continue to grow; and those who got in, thinking it's yet-another-get-rich scheme are going to leave, and those who underestimated the work it takes to create quality content will leave, too. There are both ad-supported and service-supporting successful podcasts; so that's where I'll have to disagree with you, Chris. But if you're going to be ad-supported, you better be good and realize that you need to create your content to appeal to the sorts of audience numbers that advertising works for. If you're a service, you can successfully play the hyper-niche game (assuming you're looking to have a justifiable, monetary return).
As to Podango, I believe they had some business issues with not being able to deliver for weeks on end for paid contracts due to an unfortunate catastrophic illness of a key player. If anything, from what I understand through the public chatter, the failure of Podango is not of podcasting, but of succession/emergency planning.
I don't believe podcasting is dead. Like others, I've heard it before and it's still around. Podcasting, like most technologies, is evolving, not dying. This evolution is sending it to video and vlogging, but the audio podcast will be around for a long time because there are people that rely on the audio podcast for their running, jogging, exercise time and even commute time. You can't easily watch a video doing most of those activities.
The main reason that some say podcasting is dead is due to the fact of so many producing no content or meaningless podcasts about nothing in particular. These are the podcasts that die, while the good ones with worthwhile content and a good message will be around as long as there are people wanting hear what is being said!
Lee and Doug were among the ones out front leading the charge, and I'm sorry to see that it looks like Podango isn't going to make it.
What we're doing now is using it to start conversations, as many of you are suggesting. But what's new is we're getting paid to include our sponsors in those conversations, providing their product or service a racing context and audience of loyal fans. If we say it's good, our fans support it. WOM at its best!
We are obviously targeting sponsors who want to be a part of the racing conversation, just like old-time radio did. None of this is that new--I keep saying that the only real changes are to the distribution channels and delivery platforms, not the value system.
Some audio (and video) original content makes sense as a little snack in the midst of other content. It's a change of pace from all that damn text. Let's call this short, focused thing a "podpost".
Some content is far meatier and deserving of our full attention for a longer period. Informational content aimed at a clearly defined audience tends to be this way. It's longer and may have some monetary value for the listener. Let's use the word "podcast" here.
OK? Glad we cleared that up... :)
Tony
We support our network on advertising, so you can't say the model doesn't work.
We also make sure we're diversified with products and other services. It would be bad business to rely on any one revenue stream.
Although I greatly prefer short podcasts, I don't think success is about length. There are long podcasts that are successful too. TWiT is over an hour, for example.
I believe having a strong brand, consistently delivering high-quality content, and treating your podcast or network like a business (if you intend it to be a business) are the keys to success.
Knowledge is power and audio is a highly effective means of drawing someone into a concept. I personally feel it is less about the device and more about the server.
Login to whatever device you are on whether it be an ipod, a phone, a TV, a computer, a car radio or a kiosk, go to your bookmark and continue to listen. As long as the device is connected you are engaged.
Yes, I know we are not that wired yet but someday soon.
Want to read more about what you are listening to, then click on related articles. Interested in the product, then click on the related product intro video then click purchase.
Or browse through testimonials before you commit.
Then (here is an idea) go ahead and give the rep a call and start to build a relationship just like the old days.
But now you are armed with knowledge which now puts you in the driver seat. Not the rep.
Audio will continue to grow with social media. Podcasting won't once everything is wired.
- Joel Mark Witt
That "damned text" you speak of drives everything online. Text is the best compression technology of info. Text is scannable - searchable - and can be consumed offline after being printed on actual paper. Text was here before podcasting and will be here after.
I do see your point about snack vs dinner though - and I agree.
- Joel Mark Witt
Text doesn't hold up so well in the car, when you are working out or when you are walking around at home or even in the office.(Which can add up to a large portion of a day)
When I think of audio I think of the days of families gathering around the radio to listen together. Print was for dad reading the paper and telling the kids to get lost.
Obviously text has many, many applications but audio has plenty of room for growth.
Audio can already be searched and is as portable as any piece of paper if you have the right device.
But it is definitely not good bullet points and quick overviews.
Ain't life grand?
No war - just comments. I see that tongue - and you're right it is firmly placed in the side of your cheek. :-)
- Joel Mark Witt
- Joel Mark Witt
We work hard to create really powerful brands for our shows and a brand for our network so that all the shows hang together. It's not a coincidence that our shows all use the same format and have similar names and logos.
I also think consistent delivery -- getting a show out every week no matter what -- is important. In fact, I just finished my show for tomorrow. Some people might slack off because it's New Year's Eve, but I know that my listeners expect to get a show tomorrow whether it's a holiday or not.
Good audio quality is important too. I don't think there are many successful shows that sound as if they were recorded on a telephone. It's much harder to record a show with multiple hosts or guests and keep the audio quality up. That's why our shows have only one host.
Frankie is also right that text is really important. We put full transcripts of all our podcasts on our website. That gives Google something to index (and people who don't listen to podcast something to read). We get pretty significant traffic from search engines. Some people will just read the pages, but I suspect we also regularly get new podcast listeners that way. It's also a place where we can give advertisers a link.
I believe Quick and Dirty Tips is are successful because we put a lot of thought and energy into how we present our shows and into our business model, and we have solid partnerships, but there are other success stories out there. People are making money, people are using podcasts as marketing tools, and some people are just pursuing a hobby they love.